ON IMMIGRATION:

DAVID GREGORY: 
And we are back with our roundtable. Joining me this morning, Republican Senator from Utah, Mike Lee and Democratic Senator from New York, Kirsten Gillibrand, columnist for The New York Times, David Brooks, Washington correspondent and anchor for BBC World News America, Katty Kay, and NBC News Chief White House correspondent, our political director, Chuck Todd, who might just have to take over at any time. Thank you all (CHUCKLE) for being here. 
Senator, let me begin with you and get some reaction to Senator Rubio. Senator Lee, on immigration, what is the bottom line here? Are there going to be poison pills that ultimately kill this legislation? Or do you see it surviving?

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
I don't know. It's something that might well survive the Senate with a few Republican votes that appear to be on it. It could get through, especially if a few others join it. What we don't yet know is the details, the fine print of the bill. Some have suggested it could be as-- as long as 1,500 pages. We have yet to see it. I look forward to seeing it.

 

DAVID GREGORY: 
What are you concerned about as you hear Senator Rubio?

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
What I'm most concerned about is the fact that I think we need to undertake this in a step by step fashion. I agree with 70 or 80% of what they've been talking about. But I think we're best served if we start with border security and move onto decent modernization, the entry/exit system. We can get those things passed. There's broad-based bipartisan consensus for those things. It'll be a lot easier to deal with the 11 million once those are in place.

 

DAVID GREGORY: 
But is the pathway to citizenship the real deal breaker for you?

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
The pathway to citizenship, right now, before those other element are in place, is the deal breaker for me. It's not necessarily something that would be a deal breaker down the road. I just think we need to get the other things in place first. It's a matter of sequencing.

 

…

 

CHUCK TODD: 
Well, I would just say, I mean I agree with-- I do think the difference between immigration and guns is, in immigration, I think the emotion's been taken out of it. And that's why you're seeing, I think, a whole bunch of people attack it as public policy rather than getting-- the gun issue, because it's so emotional, I think actually makes it harder. 

But Senator Lee, I guess my one question is do you not believe the metric that they're going to have with the border security? Do you not believe-- because that supposedly, that has to-- there's going to be an amount that they have to come up with and say, "Okay, the border is secure. Then the path to citizenship begins." Do you just not believe that's going to be the case?

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
You know, it's not so much that--

 

CHUCK TODD: 
Because that's what you were just arguing for.

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
Right.

 

CHUCK TODD: 
And that's supposedly in that bill.

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
I mean it's not so much that I don't believe the metric. It's that I think it's a matter of political reality. And also is a matter of the practical implementation of these laws. We can pass things right now that would deal with border security, and that will implement the entry/exit system, and will update and modernize our visa system. We can get that done. There is broad-based bipartisan support for all those things in both houses of Congress. We can get that done. 

There is a lot less consensus on what to do with the 11 million. So what I'm saying is let's get those things done right now. We will deal with the 11 million once those things are done. And I think we'll be able to convince a lot more people to support addressing the 11 million that way.

 

…

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
If there's one thing we learned from the last comprehensive immigration debate we had in 2007, it's that when we play politics with this area of the law, everyone loses. We stalled out further immigration efforts for, effectively, six years. What I'm saying is not necessarily that you have to do border security first because it's the most important. These are all important issues. 

What I'm saying is that it's a matter of sequencing. You've got to deal with border security. You've got to have an entry/exit system. And you've got to update and modernize our visa system so that it works. And that way, we'll be in a better position to implement and enforce whatever laws we have--

 

 

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ON NEW GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION

 

DAVID GREGORY: 
It appears they'll get that, Senator Lee. Do you think what is called Manchin/Toomey here in Washington, which is an expanded background check bill, can it pass the Senate?

 

SEN. MIKE LEE: 
It remains to be seen whether it can pass the Senate. It was introduced just the other day. It was interesting, it wasn't introduced until after we had voted to proceed to the bill. You know, following the tragedy at Sandy Hook, Americans have been rightfully focused on how to prevent such tragedies from occurring in the future. 
But unfortunately, the proposals we've seen would serve primarily to limit the rights of law-abiding citizens while doing little, if anything, to actually prevent tragedies like this from occurring in the future. So Toomey/Manchin does contain some carve-outs. But we know that today's carve-outs are tomorrow's loopholes. And that's of concern to us. This bill, I believe, would do more to limit the rights of the law-abiding than it would to actually prevent violent crime. And that's why I can't support it.